Japan kept its isolation policy since the medieval era until American sent the delegation to Japan so called Blackship and demanded a trade and a diplomatic relationship with the Shogunate government in 1853.
引用文献も? After 2 century old Sakoku, Edo shogunat had to cede before a threat of 4 American ships.
>Tomo is a real Japanese girl, >21 years old, now living in America. > >Go to the Gallery to see Tomo showing her pussy, sucking cock, >and getting naked in public! > >www.tomoparadise.com >↑この女、知ってます。LAの語学学校在学中に白人DQNに >ひっかけられて即結婚、退学、数ヶ月後GC取得することなく離婚。 >現在不法ステイしながらこんなことやってます。 >元ダンナのデレク トーマス(このサイトの管理者でLAウィークリーの >しょーもないライター)といまだ同居していて外出することもなく >毎日セックス三昧だとか・・・。 >一番なりたくない留学生クズレの典型ですな。 >ダンナは超日本人マニアで私もナンパされました、ついてってないけどね。 >でも同じ高知出身でLA在住ということもあって何か人事とは >思えない。これ通報したら不法滞在者を働かせたという罪でダンナ >タイホされませんかね???
英米の大学は、哲学博士 (Doctor of Philosophy: Ph. D.) の牙城。 だから、留学の価値がある。 無哲学・能天気の人間がひしめくわが国の大学は、高等教育機関に値しない。 だのに、入学希望者がひしめく。 今なお「義理 (序列) が廃れば、この世は闇だ」と考えられているからである。 You can read more at http://www11.ocn.ne.jp/~noga1213/
PSE (=Perfect Speaker of English) studied English in Japan, and she became so proficient in English that she taught English to native English speakers as well. She also acquired more than 50,000 words of vocabulary when she was only a college student.
>>461 She taught English to native speakers? I find this hard to believe, especially since you say that she learned English in Japan. So you're saying that she learned English in Japan and then went to an English speaking country to teach English to Native speakers? Honestly, if this is the truth then I think this person would be pretty famous throughout the world, or at least Japan. I find it extremely hard to believe, but if its true then this PSE person is a true genius.
>>464 Why would she go to a foreign country and teach native speakers their own language? Unless you mean to tell me that she taught english to native english speakers in Japan, but that is pretty much absurd. Did she teach to small children or something? I don't know where she supposedly taught english to native speakers, but if it's America then I really find that incomprehensible. Considering how difficult it is for Americans with Masters Degrees of English to find work, I fail to think of who would hire a foreigner who learned English in a foreign setting instead of someone who grew up living in America.
I assume that there is no proof of this PSE person's amazing feats is there? I'd like to see her english if there are any of her threads still in existence here. Please link me one of her threads so I can see her so called "perfect" english.
>>465 She does seem to have gone to the United States to teach linguistics or something at a college, but she did not say anything about where she taught English to native English speakers. In any case, she is an applied linguist, that is, a scholar specialized in language education. So her case may be exceptional.
As for her English, I think you have already read her English in your own thread. You said it had no problem, didn't you?
403 :Perfect Speaker of English ◆Ue0MSKZOLQ :04/03/04 23:42 To Mr. OB,
You do not need to make poor excuses to avoid taking the test.
The point is whether you can really point out mistakes in someone else's writing. If you can really find mistakes, you can do so whether you know the writer or not. It is not that you NEED to take my test. It is whether you WANT to take it or not. But honestly, there may be people who take it to mean that you are afraid of making stupid mistakes instead of finding someone else's mistakes if you do not take the test. As for me, I do not expect someone like you to be able to find someone else's mistakes all the time if you used the grammar-translation method when you were young. It is probably needless to say that it is even less likely that you can point out which part is unnatural in someone else's writing if that someone else's English is fairly good. So you do not really need to worry about anything because I, or we applied linguists, know the results from the beginning. It is just for fun. I do not mean to make fun of you if you make mistakes. How could I make fun of a natural result. It would be a shame to do so.
But unless you can successfully complete the test, you should say "my honest imagination" rather than "my honest opinion" when you claim you have found someone else's "mistakes." Or you should say "I would choose a different phrase" or something if you like to choose a different phrase for that.
>>467 The one I know is even more extraordinary. She does not know such simple words as "swimsuit" or "swimming pool." But she stayed in the United States for three years when she was a child. She is still a child (12 years old), though.
>>472 Those paragraphs that were copied here are extremely good, but there are still some weird parts and a few mistakes (most likely typos though) in it. I personally don't think this is the english of someone who would teach english to native speakers, but as >>466 pointed out, she may have not taught to native speakers.
Also you wrote that she wouldn't use such simple words like "swimming pool" or "swimsuit", but what else would you suggest she use? There are no others words outside of slang that convey the exact same meanings for those two. You also said that she is still 12 years old, and that she did live in the United States when she was a child which contradicts >>461 who said that she learned English in Japan.
So let me get this straight. She spent a few years in the United States and then went to college in Japan (at this time she was 12 years old or under, mind you), and then she went to a foreign country to teach linguistics when she was still a child under 12 years old? Hmmm.... very interesting indeed.
>>473 In >>466 I did not suggest that PSE did not actually teach native English speakers. I just wrote that PSE did not write anything about exactly where she taught native English speakers. It does not mean that she did not teach native English speakers. Most people do not provide much personal information on the Internet.
Anyway, what are the few mistakes or possible typos that you found in her writing? She seems to be playing with words in her writing, and it is difficult for me to find mistakes in it.
About >>472: That is a different person (a 12-year-old girl). PSE is an adult.
Don't take that liar’s words, teru. They're just trying to mess up here. PSE and 12ys old girl are exactly same person. That's that. She is genius in language, even speaks Chinese well.
>>476 I see, I guess I just mistook the the two people then. Either way I still find the story of PSE hard to believe, even if she is an adult.
While her english (from the linked paragraphs) was quite good, I found a lot of parts that seemed odd to me, and at least one or two mistakes (which may be typos like I said before). All of the sentences that I will copy her and point out what I think is odd, are from >>470.
"The point is whether you can really point out mistakes in someone else's writing." -Reading this makes you think "the point of what?". I know she means "the point of the test", but a lot of people may not realize that. In my opinion, she should have written: "The point of the test is whether......"
"It is not that you NEED to take my test. It is whether you WANT to take it or not." -There's no need for two sentences here. I would think that most people would connect the two with a comma.
"But honestly, there may be people who take it to mean that you are afraid of making stupid mistakes instead of finding someone else's mistakes if you do not take the test." -This sentence is kind of hard to understand. I believe she means that some people may take OB's unwillingness to take the test as an inability to answer the questions correctly.
"So you do not really need to worry about anything because I, or we applied linguists, know the results from the beginning. It is just for fun. I do not mean to make fun of you if you make mistakes. How could I make fun of a natural result. It would be a shame to do so" -She didn't put a question mark after "natural result" even though it was a question. To make it correct she would need to put in a question mark, or at least connect those two sentences with a comma. She wrote "would be a shame to do so" which sort of means "would be a waste to do so", this doesn't fit here. I believe she maybe intended to write "it would be shameful to do so." or something along those lines.
>>483 >"The point is whether you can really point out mistakes in someone else's writing." >-Reading this makes you think "the point of what?". I know she means "the point of the >test", but a lot of people may not realize that. In my opinion, she should have written: >"The point of the test is whether......"
Actually this PSE's way of using "the point is..." is quite common in native English speakers' writing. You can probably find thousands of similar setences on the Internet.
A film which does this may be a commercial success. It may be entertaining. But it is not a documentary. One need only consult Rule 12 of the rules for the Academy Award: a documentary is a non-fictional movie.
The point is not that Bowling is biased. No, the point is that Bowling is deliberately, seriously, and consistently deceptive.
The truth is PSE seems to have deliberately used it so that "OB" might overreact to her writing and pick the wrong place to criticize as incorrect English. So she knew all along how people feeling suspicious about other people's English would react.
>"It is not that you NEED to take my test. It is whether you WANT to take it or not." >-There's no need for two sentences here. I would think that most people would connect >the two with a comma.
In my opinion you are not right about this. You cannot connect those two sentences with a comma. I think it is best to leave them that way, but if you do not want to separate them with a period, you could use a semicolon (=";").
To connect two sentences with a comma, you need a conjunction. Details can be found in the appendixes of some college dictionaries.
>"But honestly, there may be people who take it to mean that you are afraid of making stupid >mistakes instead of finding someone else's mistakes if you do not take the test." >-This sentence is kind of hard to understand. I believe she means that some people may take >OB's unwillingness to take the test as an inability to answer the questions correctly.
If I remember correctly, just before that message was posted, "OB" formally refused to take the test, giving some kind of unreasonable excuses. So it was not difficult for me to understand that sentence.
>"So you do not really need to worry about anything because I, or we applied linguists, know the >results from the beginning. It is just for fun. I do not mean to make fun of you if you make mistakes. >How could I make fun of a natural result. It would be a shame to do so" >-She didn't put a question mark after "natural result" even though it was a question. To make it correct >she would need to put in a question mark, or at least connect those two sentences with a comma. She wrote >"would be a shame to do so" which sort of means "would be a waste to do so", this doesn't fit here. I believe >she maybe intended to write "it would be shameful to do so." or something along those lines.
You are right about this. Actually PSE corrected this typo right after she posted that message. She put a question mark after "natural result."
>>483 She said that she wrote that message quickly,proofread it quickly, and then posted it though there were places that she still did not like (but did not want to take time correcting).
Do you think the average native English speakers who teach English in the United States would write in a much better way?
I know a native Japanese speaker who teaches Japanese and also writes nice short stories and essays in Japanese as a hobby. But cases like that seem to be extremely rare. Although personally I do not like that Japanese teacher's writing, I think he is exceptional. Most Japanese teachers teaching Japanese are probably not really amazingly superb writers in my opinion.
Here we are supposed to be comparing people who have learned English in English-speaking countries with people who have learned English as a foreign language in Japan. Perfect Speaker of English (PSE) learned English as a foreign language in Japan, and we are examining her English now. Therefore this topic is one of the most appropriate topics to be discussed in this thread.
This topic is especially interesting because PSE learned English just like any other ordinary student in Japan and acquired the level of Egnlish proficiency which exceeds that of a well-educated native English speaker. It is a fact that she seems to have scored higher on English tests than some well-educated native English speakers.
Maybe it is a good idea to compare PSE with someone who studied English for a couple of years in the United States or England.
>>497 You sure seem to be a big fan of PSE. By the way, what ever happened to this PSE person and why does she not post her anymore? I still do find it hard to believe that this PSE person learned English to such a high degree while being in Japan the whole time according to your claims. Of course, I also see a claim that says PSE lived in America for some years during her childhood? Which is the truth? If you still insist that she learned English only in Japan, then how is it that she taught English to native speakers? I highly doubt she did this while being in Japan, and if she taught in another country then she would be learning English in that country would she not? Also how is it that she scored higher than native speakers on tests if she was in Japan the whole time?
Your story just seems extremely hard to believe. I don't know the real truth so I can't call it a lie, but without some proof I don't know anyone who would believe it.
>>501 There are at least a few people who seem to be her big fans. I am just saying what I know.
> I also see a claim that says PSE lived in America for some years during her childhood?
That is not what I said. That is about another girl who lived in the United States for three years but acquired only a small vocabulary.
PSE is the woman who studied English in Japan just like any other average student in Japan and has become an applied linguist later.
PSE once said that she had never lived in the United States or any other foreign country until after she mastered English and was invited to a US college to teach there as a linguist.
>>501 As for "proof," it is impossible to show any "proof" here on the Internet. You experienced the same problem before, right? If you want to believe her story, then you should believe it. If you don't want to, then you should not.
But she once said that she spent about 12,000 hours studying English before she could read English-language newspapers, novels and short stories without using dictionaries. That story sounds credible to me.
She also said that she used the direct method to learn English. That is a way of teaching or learning English through English only, that is, without translation. The direct method is perhaps the only way to achieve native-like proficiency in a foreign language. So this sounds credible to me, too.
Anyway there are still some people who do not believe that you are a native English speaker, and that you have achieved that level of Japanese proficiency in just two years while mostly living in the United States. Her case may be similar to yours in a sense.
I see your point about me being a similar case, to an extent. However, there is no way I that I have studied Japanese for even close to 12,000 hours, yet I can read newspapers (though I do need to use an electronic dictionary sometimes for kanji I don't know) and novels fairly well. Assuming a person studied 8 hours every single day (which is a LOT of studying) then they would study for 1500 days, or over four years before reaching 12,000 hours. Even if someone studied for four hours every single day, which is still quite a bit, it would take them 3000 days, or approximately 8.2 years to reach 12,000 hours. Therefore, I believe she would become able to read English newspapers and novels much, much sooner than 12,000 hours of study, especially if she used the so called "direct method".
I do agree with this "direct method" as the only really good way to learn a language, to an extent at least. This is the reason that I never took a Japanese class, since all Japanese classes offered in my area are, of course, taught in English.
In any event, if this PSE person's story is true, it is truely amazing that she was called by a foreign University to teach English, or linguistics to said University's country's students. Her story is very interesting indeed.
According to what she said, PSE was a young girl of 20 years of age or so when she exceeded well-educated native English speakers in English proficiency.
>>535 Although I've only read the one paragraph that got copied on to this thread, if I was to judge her abilities from that post, I can easily say that she has still not exceeded any well-educated native speaker. She is good at english, very good, but if she is going to say that she is better than most well-educated native speakers at their own language, she's full of shit. And even if she says that she wrote that post in only a few minutes and quickly proofread it, that still proves that she isn't better than any native speaker. Why? Because native speakers don't proofread their posts. It seems to me that this PSE person is someone who got good at english, has an extremely large ego and likes to throw around fantastical stories a lot.
Very good? Please. Anyone who writes like that isn't very good. Or your standard so low?
>Because native speakers don't proofread their posts.
That's a bunch of bull. I know many Americans who are active on BBS's and they do proofread (or read it over at least once) their posts before posting them. Maybe youy don't (That must be the reason for some of your crappy English translations).
>>536 Native speakers do proofread their writing, and their writing is full of mistakes even after that. One of my friends works for a major newspaper, and her job is to proofread. She is in fact a chief proofreader. She says many journalists' writings are full of mistakes, and she and many other proofreaders under her supervision carefully proofread all of the articles written by those professional writers.
I myself have done the same job for the summary of what I said in an interview. The writing written by the professional writer who summarized what I said did not make sense at all. It was like something children write. So I had to rewrite the whole text, and faxed it to the newspaper company before it was pubished. The people at the newspaper were very happy because now the article sounded very nice and easy to understand.
So, to think that well-educated native English writers write perfect English or even good English is just an illusion. I am afraid Teru is probably totally mistaken about that.
>>549 You are mistaken about what Teru said. He sisn't say that native speakers don't proofread in general. He said that native speakers don't proofread their posts. Although what Teru claims is not true, your argument is not appropriate as you either missed his point or intentionally shifting the subject from proofreading a post to proofreading in general. So wash your face with miso soup and come back later.
>>557 Well, I have come back. I am sorry I did not wash my face with miso soup, though, because I prefer water.
Anyway, it seems Teru thought that >>535 was meant for him, which is a complete misunderstanding. He overreacted and began to badmouth PSE unreasonably.
>>535 was not a reply to his post >>508 which boasts about being able to read Japanese-language newspapers and novels, having spent "much, much" less time studying Japanese than PSE did with English.
Actually >>535 was a reply to the person who wrote that since PSE was a middle-aged woman, she had plenty of time to study English.
I wrote >>535 because I wanted to encourage young Japanese students to study English hard by pointing out a possibility that they too may be able to exceed native English speakers in English proficiency if they study hard enough.
>>536 Teru, if you are to claim that, you really MUST rewrite PSE's post (>>470) so that it will be "100%" grammatically CORRECT and GOOD English while at the same time it will be a LOT MORE FUN for most well-educated people to read.
You guys are great, honestly. The big thing on this English message board seems to be scouring through other people's posts and trying to find mistakes or unnatural sentences. When I said that native speakers don't proofread their posts on message boards, I meant that most native speakers probably do not. Of course I should have specified this at the time of posting, but I unfortunately did not. I find it quite funny how people turn so quickly to pick on my age by calling me young and such. If I was to say that I was 30 years old for example when I first came to 2ch, I honestly doubt there would be as many people trying to call me writing juvenile etc... Even though my writing wouldn't change in the slightest, just because I happen to be 18 years old people use that as a tool to try and insult me.
続き Just to clear it up, I am not in any way attempting to offend PSE, who I haven't even directly communicated with over this message board. I am only saying that the story of PSE is an extremely hard one to believe with all of the unmatching stories and fantastic claims about her that are floating around here. If in reality she did in fact learn English to such an extent that a foreign college would invite her to teach at their institution, then I am very impressed. It would probably be safe to assume that there is no other person in Japan, or even the world with her ability in language acquisition. For this reason I inquired as to whether or not there was proof regarding her story, because I'd think that someone like her would be quite famous, especially in the linguistics community. Anyways, my writing her on this message board may be somewhat colloquial, but that's because I don't want to write long drawn out sentences that may be difficult for some people here to understand. If I am writing an essay, then of course I will use proper grammar and a more formal writing style, but I'm not here to try and write argumentive papers or anything like that. I am here to chat and learn for the most part so I don't really pay attention to the way I write so much. As for the topic of this thread, I think that it really doesn't matter where you study a language as long as your surrounding enviroment is one that allows you to be immersed in the language that you are trying to learn. I for one, learned most of the Japanese that I know in the United States by speaking to Japanese students at my school and using textbooks that Japanese people use. As long as you immerse yourself in the language and make an effort, anyone can pick up a language fairly quickly. If one chooses to study abroad, their chances of being immersed in a friendly language learning enviroment are probably higher than staying in their own country though.
>>560 It is very boring and time consuming to break down that paragraph, take the overall meaning and then rewrite it, so I just looked at it sentence for sentence and changed the words into something that I would probably say if I was in the same situation.
The following is how I would write PSE's paragraph. Don't think that I put a lot of thought into this because I did not. However, I do think this would be an easier to understand, and a more fun to read paragraph than the original. However, that is of course, just my opinion which many others may not agree with.
There is no need for you to be making pathetic excuses just because you do not want to take my test.
The point of the test is to decide whether or not you can really point out the mistakes in someone else’s writing. If you really are able to determine what is a mistake and what is not a mistake, then you should have the ability to point out mistakes in people’s writing regardless of who’s writing it is. I’m not saying that you need to take the test; I just believe that it would be in your best interest to take it since some people may take your unwillingness to take the test as an inability to pass it. I for one do not expect you to be able to be able to find mistakes in other people’s writing, much less unnatural sentences if you used the grammar-translation method of learning English when you were young, especially of the person who wrote the sentence’s English is good at all. There is no need to worry about me making fun of you for making mistakes, for applied linguists like myself know the results from the beginning. Just take the test for fun. It would be shameful for me to tease you for not being able to take the test, as your inability is just the natural result of using the grammar-translation method to learn English. However, until you successfully pass the test, you should not say “in my honest opinion…” because your opinion is not a qualified one. Instead, you might be better of saying “I imagine that…” when you think that you may have found a mistake in someone’s writing.
>>565 I find PSE's post much more fun to read than your >>565.
Anyway I think there are some grammatical mistakes in your writing.
1) >regardless of who’s writing it is.
→regardless of whose writing it is.
* This one is a typo? But I know native English speakers often make mistakes like that.
2) > I for one do not expect you to be able to be able to find mistakes in other people’s writing, →I for one do not expect you to be able to find mistakes in other people’s writing,
* I suppose that this is a typo, but if it is a joke or something, it it not funny at all.
3) >much less unnatural sentences if you used the grammar-translation method >of learning English when you were young →not to mention unnatural sentences if you... or →much less likey unnatural sentences if you...
* Here "much less" should not be put together with "unnatural" because it is confusing. This is not exactly a grammatical problem, but you need to avoid confusing readers.
4) >especially of the person who wrote the sentence’s English is good at all. →especially when the writer is good
* This sentence is totally corrupt and unacceptable.
5) >It would be shameful for me to tease you for not being able to take the test, as your inability is just the natural result →It would be shameful for me to tease you for not being able to pass the tese, as your inability to do so is just the natural result
* "Taking the test" is different from "passing the test." In this context you must use "pass," not "take."
6) > you might be better of saying “I imagine that…” →you might be better off saying "I imagine that..."
2) What do you mean? All you did was copy exactly what I wrote here.
3) Anyone who is skilled in English would most likely not be confused by this. This sentence is just fine.
4) The mistake in there is that I messed up and wrote "of" instead of "if" in that sentence. Considering that this whole paragraph is a challenge issued to OB, I figured it would be better to write it in a more colloquial style than a formal essay style. Therefore, in that regard, that sentence is fine. You sure do seem confident in correcting english though with those bold words you use!
5) "not being able to take the test" in that sentence means "not be able to understand/do the test". If one can't even understand the test, then there is not much of a chance of passing it is there? Nuances my friend, nuances.
6) I have no idea why those periods are so high up. I typed them like "I iimagine that...", but I guess they moved up after posting the message.
Are you having fun analyzing english? I sure hope you are!
出来ない子にたいする説明のうまさはやっぱ教師が一番 This is a pen. たったこれだけの英文でせめて30分は生徒を退屈させずに魅力的な授業を維持することが出来る? まずはこの英文で何を説明すべきか、思いつくことある?対象は新中1。 非常に難しい英文を説明すると言うことは、ひょっとしたら楽なことかも知れない。説明することがいっぱいあって 説明のしがいがある。ところがThis is a pen.だと何を説明していいかわからないでしょう。 こんなもん何か説明することある?と思えてくる。ところが実際の生徒は これが訳せなかったり、かけなかったりする。 はい、まずは授業を展開してください。 ↓
>>569 I can't believe that you still do not understand what mistakes you actually made in your post.
For 2) You do not have to repeat "be able to."
For 3) Your excuse is not good enough. That kind of ambiguous expression should be avoided.
For 4) Even if "if" is used instead of "of," that sentence still does not make sense and is grammatically incorrect.
For 5) "Take the test" is inappropriate here no matter what you say. In this context OB would be laughed at if he did not take the test, but he would not be laughed at if he took the test but failed to pass it.
For 6) I am not talking about the periods. You used "of" where "off" should have been used. That is a mistake.
>>586 I didn't even notice 2) and 6) last night when I was looking that over. I must have been tired or something. About 3), who are you to decide what should be avoided and what should not? I've used expressions like that, and seen expressions like that used countless times and have never encountered anyone who had difficulties understanding. Looks like this one might be a personal problem. In 4), if I change it to "the writer", the meaning doesn't change greatly, but it loses the feel of what I wanted to say at the time. I am pretty sure that is grammatically OK as well, even if it might seem weird to you. )5 I read over the original paragraph and I agree with you here now. just change that sentence to "It would be shameful for me to tease you for making mistakes..."
You sure are interesting to argue with! By the way, your English is quite good, so on topic with the thread could you tell me if you studied abroad or learned your English in Japan?
>>590 I must point out one thing to you: American schools do hire foreign people to teach English. At my school, more than half the professors come from some other countries, including English professors.
I don't know where you are from, but as many other people in this board says, you should know that what you see in your own little neighborhood does not represent the whole country.
Plus, you have learned some things from the person who corrected your mistakes here. That should be a good enough reason to believe that people from the overseas can teach you a thing or two about English...Just be grateful when someone teaches you something no matter where the person comes from. Well, that is what I tell myself at least. Otherwise, I won't survive in my university!
I never said that there are no foreign teachers in American schools anywhere. I said that it was hard to believe that a University would scout out PSE, who was living in Japan and offer her a job at a University. Most foreign teachers who are in America lived in America for a very long time and most likely graduated from an American college before the found teaching positions. In my school there are at least two foreign English teachers, including one Japanese woman who teaches English 101 (although she has lived in America for over 20 years).
I was just saying that PSE's story is highly unlikely. I did not say that it was impossible, just hard to believe.
>who are you to decide what should be avoided and what should not? >I've used expressions like that, and seen expressions like that used countless >times and have never encountered anyone who had difficulties understanding.
>>620 However that doesn't justify being careless while you are learning a foreign language. That kind of attitude does not help one learn and become proficient in writing or apeaking, foreign or not.
こちらが想像だにしない勘違いを高校生はするものです。 Seeing me standing by my car with its hood raised, he slowed and stopped. さてみなさんはこの英文をみて、高校生はこういうところがわかっていないだろうと 想像して、どういった説明方法を考えますか? 実際、どういったことがわかっていないのか?どういった間違いをしそうか考えてみてください。 昨晩はびっくりした。訳させてみてこちらが想像だにしなかった間違いをしていた。
私の指導方法 Seeing me standing by my car with its hood raised, he slowed and stopped. Seeing, standingがそれぞれ現在分詞か、動名詞かを聞く?ここでまちがえるようならこの英文はもうここで中断。 もとに戻って該当個所を復習。 See me standingの文型を聞く。 Seeingは現在分詞であるとの回答が。正解。では現在分詞の中でもどんな用法かをきく。 分詞構文との回答が。正解。ここで、学校で使用している文法書(Forest)で分詞構文のところを ひかせる。その中でどの用法かを考えさせる。 byの品詞、意味を聞く。 with its hood raisedについて、Forestでページを 言ってやり、そこを読ませる。読んだだけでは理解できないであろうから、こちらも補足説明をしてやる。 最後にhe slowed and stopped.を訳させてみた。簡単だったから、問題なかった。 ↑以上の過程をすべてクリアーした。問題なかった。 し か し こちらが想像だにしない間違いを生徒はしていた。はあ、、、びっくりした。現実の生徒の脳内というものは こんなものかと、あらためて痛感し、また、どっと疲れた。もういやになってしまう。
「信じられない脳内」はこうでした。 「フードをかぶっている私を車の横で立っているのを見ると、、、」 まさか、hoodをフードと訳すとは思わなかった。いくらなんでもここではボンネットでしょう。 これに気づかないんだからあ、、、。訳していておかしいと思わないのかなあ、、、。 それに2,3行前にこんな文もあるのだし、 I raised the hood and noticed that steam was escaping from the radiator. まさかここでもhoodをフードと考えていたのかなあ???訳せないこともないなあ。私訳↓ 「(かぶっている)フードをあげて、(中をのぞき込んでみて)気づいた事は〜」 ああ〜、そうか!多分↑のように、もうこの時点で間違えていたんだ。気づかなかった。 私はねえ、この箇所は問題ないだろうと思って、とばしたのよ。 嗚呼、これに気づかなかった、私に落ち度があったのですね。あそこでもうすでに間違えていたんだあ。 気づかなかった、、、。
>>635 >I raised the hood and noticed that steam was escaping from the radiator. >まさかここでもhoodをフードと考えていたのかなあ???訳せないこともないなあ。私訳↓ >「(かぶっている)フードをあげて、(中をのぞき込んでみて)気づいた事は〜」
>>641さんでもいいので、 Seeing me standing by my car with its hood raised, he slowed and stopped. のよりよい説明の仕方をご存じでしたら、ここに展開して見てください。 他にいい方法ないかなあ。この英文はどうやってわからせいったらよいのだろうか? 私は教師ではなく、教員免許も持っていないのですよ。未熟なんです。
>>643 どういう人に説明するかによって違うんじゃない? Seeing me, he slowed and stopped. これがまず分からなかったら、それを説明する。 He saw me standing by my car. これが分からなかったら、それを説明する。 with + ○○ + 過去分詞 これが分からなかったら、それを説明する。 ステップ・バイ・ステップで、 ちょこっとずつ説明してみたら?他の例文なんか出しつつ。 でも、ここで英語の教え方なんか話しててどうすんの?
What is my point? I just wanted to say those who learned English by getting immersed in English environment don't have to know English grammar we learn at school. They just speak it, use it... Isn't it just enough?
>>685 > They just speak it, use it... > Isn't it just enough?
Of course, that's enough. They can speak it, and they can use it... How wounderful! They don't have to know all the English grammar because they won't be English teachers, anyway So what?
ただ、議論の場などでは、人の意見に対して、 I agree with youを使うと思います。 それに対して、スケジュールというかプロポーザルみたいな場合には、 I agree to your plan.のように使われることが多いと思います。 文法というよりも、状況とか後ろの言葉なんかで使い方がかわるというか、 そんな気がしますが。もし違ってたら笑って下さい。すんまそん。
>>700 What do you want me to say by saying " So what?" Not all of us want to be English teachers, some of us might, though. If you can get things done in English, it is good enough. You don't really have to be able to explain things, why things are as they are. Grammar is something we can't avoid knowing if we don't learn a language as native speakers of the language do.
彼の英語力はこんなもんですよ。これマジですよ。 The girl who loves me is Mary. The girl whom I love is Mary. The girl whose name is Mary is my girlfriend. これらどれもまともな訳はなかったですよ。
僕は人間だから当然、間違える時もありますが、アメリカで生まれて、ほぼ19年間も 住んでいるので、ここの人は何を言うか言わないかよく知ってますよ。 文法的に正しい英語であるかもしれないが、ほとんどのネイティブは変に感じると 思いますよ。ただ、ネイティブなら"I agree to your plan"なんて絶対言わないって 事を知らせたかっただけです。
The girl who loves me is Mary. The girl whom I love is Mary. The girl whose name is Mary is my girlfriend. これらどれもまともに訳せない彼が >大学付属の英語学校は大体8つにレベル分けされていて、大学に入る >には、それの一番上まで行き着かなければだめなんだよ。 ↑こんなことできるのか?ありえないと思うのだがなあ。でも彼は最終的には 大学を卒業するのだろうか?しかもあっちで就職、永住すると言っている。
>>590 There seems to be no point in continuing with this unless you study English more and become good enough to realize what is wrong with your English. But it will probably take many years before you (or anyone of your age for that matter) can do it.
>By the way, your English is quite good, so on topic with the thread >could you tell me if you studied abroad or learned your English in Japan?
I learned English in Japan.
To other people who may be reading this: There is no need to go to the United States or England to learn English.
彼には悪いけど、語学学校で挫折してもらいたい。 ごめんね。君がそのままエレベーター式に大学に入学し、卒業することができるということには 物事の不条理を感じる。 ↑こんなことをねがっちゃいけないのかなあ。 The girl who loves me is Mary. The girl whom I love is Mary. The girl whose name is Mary is my girlfriend. これらどれもまともに訳せないのに、金銭力にものを言わせて、留学させてもらい 力をつけさせてもらい大学を卒業させてもらうというのは、なんか不公平のような気がする。
You sure are extremely cocky. I like your usage of the old "if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you" routine too. Very nice. I also find it funny how you are so stuck on my age. Do you really think that age matters so much? Just because you couldn't do something at X age, doesn't mean that other people are unable to as well. Your writing style is very bitter overall. Your arrogance is rather annoying too, but that's just my personal opinion.
>>771 I'm talking about the way you learn the language. Which is more effective to learn a foreign language, the way you learn it in your own country or in a country where the language is spoken? is the question... but if you are brought up in an American base or you go to an International school, then, the way you learn English is just the same as you do in a country English is spoken. You are immersed in the language. You just absorb it naturally. If you learn English without having any opportunity to get to speak it, it is very difficult to be able to do it and I admire you for your great effort and will power.
>>773 I went to Japanese public junior and senior high schools, and I started to learn English when I entered the junior high school. So I was not in an environment where I could learn English naturally. The first time I saw a native English speaker speaking English was when I was in college. I went to a Japanese college, of course, but since I got interested in English, I chose it as my major.
Generally, I believe that it is better to study English in Japan if you are really serious about learning English.
If you go to the United States or England, your English will be influenced by slang and dialects too much, and you cannot learn "pure" standard English.
>>773 The most important thing about learning English is the choice of method. You can never master English if you use the wrong method. If you are to master English, you must stick to the appropriate method to do it, namely the direct method, from the beginning to the end.
It does not matter whether you have an opportunity to speak English or not. But it does matter whether you know how to learn a foreign language or not.
For example, you must spend a lot of time improving your pronunciation until correct pronunciation is completely "fossilized." I spent hundreds of hours trying to perfect my pronunciation when I was in junior and senior high. But most people who have studied English in an English-speaking country speak English with a strong accent. That is really bad. Of course, most people seem to get the same result if they just go to a language school in Japan. They must know that they need to study English pronunciation really hard right from the start, and that they must do it on their own at home unless they have a phonetician teach them.
In any case, I had no trouble developing my speaking skills without having anyone to speak to.
Well, you guys are fuckin' shit. I can't take you anymore. I used to live in L.A. . I really had a good time there. I found a big tity girl. I loved her.
In Japan, I fall in love with Ai Iijima. When I saw her, she said to me A-A-A-Ai♪. Wow , that's what I wanna hear. What dou you think?
>>802>>803>>805 Yes okay. You're right about being able to acquire "pure English" by studying in Japan, but I disagree with you on the point that this isn't possible in countries where English is the native language, like in the US and UK. Why? Well how many Americans and English do you know who have the knowledge of your so-called "pure english"? I'm thinking... more than a couple. There's more to learning English than just being influenced by slangs and dialects. If you gain sufficient knowledge, you would know how to differenciate between formal and informal English, and you would have a much higher level of understanding the language on the whole, giving you the ability to use all sorts. In that sense, I personally think it's impossible to "master" English in Japan. Answer this. Which do you think is more efficient? Studying Japanese in the US or in Japan? Does "mastering" a launguage not include understanding its history and culture?
>>725 (輝) >いや、絶対言わないんですから・・・ I agree with your planという文なら別の話ですが。
輝の英語力はこんなもん。 ためしにググルと"agree to your plan"で207件"agree to your"なら34800件。 timing, request, proposal, offer, the terms and conditionなどなどだくさん出てくるねえ。 つーか、輝はもっと謙虚になって、勉強しなさいね。
>>812 What I meant is that you should "fossilize" pure standard English first. After that, you may want to learn slang and dialects. But it takes more than 10 years, perhaps more than 15 years, to fossilize standard English.
In order to learn slang and dialects, you actually do not need to leave Japan because it is easy to learn them through movies, TV programs, and the Internet, which are all available in Japan.
However, if you want to be a linguist specialized in slang and dialects, you will need to go where they are used, and you will have to do your research there. But that is another story. It is not really a question of English learning in an ordinary sense.
>Which do you think is more efficient? Studying Japanese in the US or in Japan?
I do not know much about Japanese learning in the United States (or in Japan for that matter). If there are...
1) good Japanese textbooks 2) Japanese TV and radio programs 3) good monolingual Japanese dictionaries for people learning Japanese as a foreign language
...available in the United States, then you do not need to go to Japan to learn Japanese. Perhaps, thanks to the Internet, all of these are available in the United States, except 3.
>Does "mastering" a launguage not include understanding its history and culture?
I studied American history and British history, and their culture plus many other things indirectly related to English. That kind of study may be beneficial, but it may not be a must for everyone if you consider English as an international language, not as a language spoken only by U.S. and British citizens.
Thanks to the Internet, we can directly get in touch with American and British culture while we are in Japan.
At any rate, it is better to study the historical and cultural aspects of English in Japan when you are still young so that you will not become American or British yourself. Then after that, if you want to be a scholar specialized in the study of any of these fields, you will need to go to the United States, Britain, or any other place of your interest and do your research.
I think that the same is true with any other foreign language.
By the way, Teru often uses the word "anyways," but it is nonstandard English. Students learning English should avoid using it. They should use "anyway."
>>802 Are you the guy saying, "So what?" to me earlier? So you learned English strictly in Japan and you didn't have to have any opportunity to speak it to improveyour English. Wow! It's amazing.
Are you saying you deliverately didn't go to any English speaking countries because you wanted to fossilize "pure English" in yourself and wanted to avoid the intervention of slangs and dialects while you were still learning English? Can I understand you learned "bookish English" first, and then moved on to more colloquial English? Is it essential for us English learners to learn "pure...neutral English" which no one speaks as native speakers? What do you think? へたくそ英語スマン。
>>802 What about now? You seemed to have mastered English and don't any longer have to fear your English may be influenced by slangs and dialects. Do you travel abroad now?
bring up the subject と look at me について、 "up"=補語 "the subject"=目的語 、 "at me"=補語 という解析について、なぜか、直観的にこの見方が納得できます。 これは、中学一年の時に初めてならった、see her off と see off the man の話と同じですよね。 つまり、bringは他動詞、lookは自動詞ってことですよね。
これから熟語集などで、熟語を増やしていく中で、 他動詞+補語(形容詞 = 学校文法でいう副詞として使われる前置詞) と、 自動詞+前置詞 を区別して覚えるように気をつければいいんでしょうか? そうすると、SVC SVOCの書き換え、turn on the TV を覚えるだけで The TV is on.という表現まで使えて便利ってことですよね。
投稿者:某K 04/04/21 Wed 16:42:31 検討外れではありませんよ。 最近の「進んだ」英語教育界でも、この自動詞と他動詞の区別を全くつけないま ま、look at , turn on, belomg to, bring up 等を "phrasal verb"等という カテゴリに押し込めているようで、憶えるときには少し便利かも知れませんが、論 理的でないし、本当の応用が効かないと思います。
>>828 I studied both spoken and written English, but I chose the kind of English used by the American mass media. For written English, I also read books written by American and British authors. Reading British authors' writing sometimes was not a bad idea because there is not a big difference in written English between American English and British English.
So, for spoken English, my pronunciation is the kind of pronunciation used by the American mass media, and the kind of English I speak is pure standard spoken English, the kind of English used by the American mass media.
>You...wanted to avoid the intervention of slangs and dialects while >you were still learning English?
Yes.
>Is it essential for us English learners to learn "pure...neutral >English" which no one speaks as native speakers?
That kind of "legendary pure standard" English is easily available in the mass media and American English textbooks. If you want to sound intelligent and trustworthy when you speak English, you just must learn it.
>>835 How is your listening ability? You want your pronunciation not to be affected by slangs or dialects. OK. Fine. But if you can't understand what a local is saying, how do you show off your "pure" English? In contrast, if you are used to the daily life in the states or the UK, you can guess what the local is talking about. Don't overestimate the net and films. Expressions in them are fossilised.
I don't know... I just get this impression that many of you are making life harder for yourselves. Sure there's the Internet and movies, but what I'm saying is that these aren't resources NOT available anywhere else. So wouldn't you have to work considerably harder than people located in the US or UK to achieve the same goal? If you start thinking in terms of the abundance of resources available to you should you want any, it is quite clear which place has more. I'm just speaking from my own experience. I went abroad when I was 9, and up to now I haven't exactly been aware of English from a grammatical point of view but I feel that I can distinguish between "correct" and "incorrect" English, and that dialects and slangs have not got in the way of this naturally-gained ability.
When I talk about history and culture, I'm not limiting them to what's availble on the Internet or in films, but history and culture as intergrated parts of English-speaking life. I'm not disputing the fact that information is available in Japan, but I do believe that there are many subtle cultural aspects that closely underlie the English language which you just cannot possibly understand to a full degree unless you experience them first hand. And without them, what's "a full knowlege of the English language"?
Sorry I made this long, but my conclusion is that whilst it may be possible (though tedious) to perfect English grammatically in Japan, there are aspects of the English language you must experience first hand (ie not through literature) to "understand" English to a full extent.
Many of the arguments on this board seem logically feasible, but inpractical if carried out.
By the way, I am by no means the "example" of someone with a perfect English in what I said above. I know I must have yet a loooong way to go, but I've also done nothing up to now. Any skills I have have been effortlessly gained...and that's my point.
There are a couple of things that I need to point out: I am not the one who posted >>700. Also, in >>773 (someone else's post), I mistook >>771 for >>751 and posted a reply. It seems that it was not a mistake after all. >>773 seems to have meant >>751 when he pasted the link ">>771."
>>846 You probably do not need to be reminded of this, but it is not easy to learn English in two or three years even if you live in an English-speaking country.
Actually all of the people that I know who studied English in an English-speaking country came back to Japan with a terrible accent.
The only exception that I know is a girl who studied English for 10 years in the United States. Her English is almost perfect, but she still makes a silly mistake in pronunciation sometimes.
This exceptional girl went to the United States when she was 15 years old because she wanted to learn English.
But there is another girl who went to the United States when she was 25. She lived in the United States and studied English there for 10 years. But her English is so terrible that nobody can understand what she says.
I have a Swiss friend. 未回答 The door having been locked, we couldn't enter the room. 未回答 Time flies like an arrow. 時のハエ矢を好む He is supposed to... 彼は...に支えられている My face turned red when I was called. 寒かったとき私の顔は赤くなった
In any case, even if you live in the United States for many years, you cannot learn English effortlessly.
As we all know, Japanese students in Japan can never reach a high level of Japanese proficiency unless they make a lot of effort. In fact there are a lot of students who cannot read books. The only thing they can do is talk about everyday topics such as what to do on weekends, etc. They can never talk about difficult topics.
So, in my opinion, making a lot of effort to learn English in Japan is not meaningless at all.
>>869>>873>>889 Yes I understand what you're trying to get at. And I agree. But my point in >>846 wasn't really about pronounciation or the meaninglessness of making effort in Japan. Rather, it was about the higher degree of efficiency in learning English abraod.
I also agree with the fact that a lot of Japanese don't reach a high level of Japanese proficiency. And I agree that it is the same for native English speakers but in both cases I think you're talking about people who don't study. You don't have to study the language itself to become competent at it. I never studied English as a language - I've been using English to study other things and sometimes that's enough to be sufficiently competent at English and attain a high level of understanding.
じゃあ Thank you very much. と答えると冷たく聞こえるのかな。 感情が入るんだったらみんな Thank you so much.って言うべきでその方がpoliteなのかな。 じゃあ商業文、例えばビジネスレターなんかでも Thank you so much for your letter of ***とか so muchを使うべきなのかな。
I thought what the guy, who said he learned English strictly in Japan, said was very interesting. He thinks it is actually a better way to learn English to stay in Japan and not to let any slangs and dialects get in the way especially while you are still learning it. I believe he is very talented in languages because he was able to master the language with his limited exposure to English. I think he put in lots of energy and time in learning English so he had to give up some other things his peers enjoyed and took for granted, such as hanging around in malls, going to parties, doing stupid things... Not everyone can do this... Ordinary people should go to a country where the language you want to learn is spoken in everyday life. It's so much easier and more fun. へたくそ英語スマン。
Well, I agree with your some of the points. However, I disagree with the point that you said, "Not everyone can do this... Ordinary people should go to a country where the language you want to learn is spoken in everyday life. It's so much easier and more fun."
Following your advice might result in an increase of stupid Japanese students who not even try to learn English and just hanging around with their Japanese friends. Don't you think so? In my opinion, Japanese people should go to English-speaking countries only if they have their distination or something. Otherwise, they never be able to learn English in the other countries, and they will just waste their time and money. Well, at least they can feel the cultural differences though...
>>946 I decide to pick up the language quite seriously and not to hang around with other Japanese before I went to an English speaking country... but my homesickness was more severe(severer?) than I had expected. I did hang around with my Japanese friends more frequently than necessary... That's why my English never got to the level I wanted it to be. Did I waste my time by not making the best advantage of the opportunity I was given? Yes and no. I had a good time, apart from being homesick. I learned some English, with which I can get things done. またまたへたくそスマン。
>>963 つーか、 Ordinary people should go to a country → result in an increase of stupid Japanese students who not even try to learn English and just hanging around with their Japanese friendsという論理に飛躍、というか、本気で勉強したい 普通の人だったら、そんなことにナル可能性は低いんじゃないかということをいいたかった んだけどな。英語について指摘してるわけじゃないよ。
That means, you meant by the words, " ordinary people", were those who are not so talented in languages as the guy who mastered English only in Japan, but people who want to study hard in English... Is that right?
>>969 I meant by "the ordinary people" those not so talented in languages as to be able to master English or other foreign languages while living exclusively in Japan.
>>898 >Rather, it was about the higher degree of efficiency in learning English abraod.
It depends on how you learn English in Japan. Some people seem to learn English much faster in Japan than those who learn English in English-speaking countries.
Also, English learners in Japan may not necessarily waste their time studying English because they could learn a lot of other things while learning English.
For example, I learned a lot about phonetics while I was practicing my English pronunciation. I also read a lot of novels and short stories in English. I learned a lot about science, too, because I read a lot of college science textbooks. Reading English-language newspapers and magazines expanded my knowledge of the world as well.
>>836 Improving pronunciation involves a huge amount of listening activities. So you could say my listening ability is very high. I can understand English-language broadcasts and movies very well. I haven't had any problems speaking with people from different areas of English-speaking countries yet unless they speak English with a strong accent.
>>970 Some people have a genious for learning a foreign language. They master it no matter what...regardless of how limited their exposure to the language might be. Some things which are true with those very talented people are not necessarily true with those who are not as gifted and who don't want to spend so much time and who want to use a short-cut, by which I mean "going abroad and pick up a language while living there." またもや意味をなさないか?スマン。
A definite advantage of learning English in Japan is that it costs much less money than learning English in an English-speaking country. I spent only 100,000 yen or so on the study of English. You probably have to spend about 3,000,000 yen a year if you study English in an English-speaking country. I doubt whether the result is really worth that much money.
>>982 I agree if the sole purpose of going abroad is to learn English. If one is to go abroad and just attend English language school, what he gains from the experience may not be cost-effective.
However if one is to attend a university and graduate with a major in something, he would be learning much more than just English language. In this case, I would say the money is worth spending. Wouldn't you agree?
I understand what you meat to say I totally agree with you that Japanese people who are not so talented in language skill should go to abroad in order to learn English. I tottaly agree with you on that point.
However, what I'm trying to say is that Japanese people should go to abroard for studying English only if they have their distination or some kind of goals. .Otherwise, they never be able to learn English in the other countries..
In your case, it seems to me that you had gotten some kind of goals before you went to abroad, say, "I wanna be a good English speaker" or something, right? That's one of the great goals (or motivations). That's not bad at all. Therefore, you became a good English writer (speaker).
>>986 >However if one is to attend a university and graduate with a major in >something, he would be learning much more than just English language. >In this case, I would say the money is worth spending.
I agree with you on that point, especially if tuition is free.
>>986 It's getting more and more trendy to go abroad for a few weeks attending a language school in the morning and sight-seeing in the afternoon. It comes between studying abroad and sightseeing. On a study tour like that, you don't learn a lot. It's not cost effective... But even as it is, it's still better than nothing. If you can afford to do that, why not?
Sorry to butt in from the side. I'm >>846>>898. >>987 Your argument seems to be getting narrower and narrower - in fact, as narrow as those who go abroad to study English without a goal of some kind. And exactly why would these kind of people matter? I'm doubting the validity of your argument.
>>988◆BnNJsMYZJo Can I just ask you one question to which the answer seems obvious but nevertheless important? You are the proof for all your claims, am I right?
>>987 I agree with you. It is not cost effective to go on a study tour like I said in >>989. While I was doing a course in an English speaking country, I saw a lot of the girls(not many boys...come to think of it, it's funny) who take a study tour without any specific motivations or anything. They asked me to say things to their home-stay parents on behalf of them. They didn't even want to fix things by themselves... I doubt if they wanted to try their English. It's a waste of money if you don't want to use your English... Anyway I am not a good speaker as you kindly said. My English is just good enough to get by in an English speaking country. 通じないことが多かったですがね。
In my opinion, foreign language learning is more or less meaningless if you cannot reach a high level of proficiency. Most students studying English in English-speaking countries do not reach that level, and they soon forget English.
Also I think that the idea that people who are not talented enough to learn English in Japan can learn English in an English-speaking country is a myth. Most of these people cannot learn English no matter where they study.
However, some of them may be able to learn English if they change methods of learning. In most cases, these people haven't tried the direct method yet. So they should try it. If the direct method does not work, then they should find a better teacher or school who uses it. If nothing works, they had better give up. It would be a waste of time and money for them to go to an English-speaking country to continue their study.